[EP 203] Why doing business ‘for good’, is so good for business, with Paul Dunn

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[EP 202] Maximising the Value of a Recruitment Business in 2022

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Joanna:
Paul Dunn, I just want to say first of all an absolutely massive thank you for coming on to the podcast today. I am beyond excited to speak with you.

Paul:
Well, that makes two of us. I feel honoured and privileged to be here. And so thank you for inviting me equally, you know, we’re thankful for you, whoever you are listening to us right now. Thank you for taking the time to do that. I’m really looking forward to sharing some things that might make a difference.

Joanna:
Oh, absolutely. And make a difference. You do, Paul, every day. And you know, I guess firstly, a shout out. I’m super excited. Because of everything that we’re talking about today, we’re going to be able to dig a lot deeper in our Buy Grow Sell summit that we have coming up really soon. And don’t worry if you miss it, because you’ll be able to watch an on-demand version via the show notes as well. But Paul, I just want to preface our discussion by saying that you and Masami and B1G1 has made a fundamental impact on the joy that I get out of my business. And I feel I had been, you know, I got to this point in business after a while where I just wondered, gosh, they just don’t, they didn’t feel the depth in it, not the depth that I was after. And I just, I wanted to get involved in feeling like we were doing something that was greater than, you know, I’ve always been driven by providing massive value for our clients. That’s always been, you know, critical to everything that I do value for our staff. But I felt that it could be broader than that, and through be one to one I found, you know, this great depth that I hadn’t had before in business. And so firstly, massive thank you for giving me renewed love for business as a whole, to be able to look at it in a different way, I guess.

Paul:
Well, thank you. That’s, that is very humbling and celebrate, it is funny how you use the word depth because a few years ago, I used to tell the story, it was a very common story of you know, people would have great growth and entrepreneurship and by the way, did I tell you I’m looking forward to the summit have I told you that? Excited to talk with great people about the good stuff. But anyway, because you know, people were, you know, I salaries and all that kind of stuff, and seemingly everything they wanted. But we knew that there was that thing going on where you know, you, would you and maybe this is the sort of thing you were describing when you get home, you put your head on the pillow and at some point you go is that? Is that all there is? And the great answer is? Well, no, it is actually as he was saying there’s actually so much more. And now of course, that was a pandemic, and so on that shows itself, I think in other ways, it shows us, you use the word joy before it shows us not experiencing that to the same level. And sometimes we kind of go into our cave and cut off and all of that kind of stuff, because we think it’s all about us. But it’s actually not all about us, it’s actually about something much bigger than us that depth thing that you talk about. And then when you get that it really does, as you say change, you know, the very core, you know, you’re there, the business owner, etc. But when that core kind of gets, as it were sort of magnetism about it, then guess what used to attract new team members, you’ve thought to attract new clients, and so on, and it becomes a virtuous cycle, as opposed to a vicious cycle.

Joanna:
That’s so true. And I find you know, my personal experience has been that the involvement with B1G1 also extends to the community that I’ve met and it’s been it’s very enriching to be surrounded by and I regularly talk to people in the community now and I just feel I feel this depth of relationship and connection with you know, people in my network that that is directly attributable to connection to B1G1 and the community.

Paul:
We are your podcast is brought to you by me Why do I not really but it’s so nice of you. To mention that in what you just said. There’s some I think there’s some real magic you’re a member listening to an interview with this pre-pandemic, right? Remember, listen to this interview with Jeff Bezos of Amazon and space shop fame and who knows what else and the interviewer said, and like I said, it was like three and a half years ago. And the interviewer says, Jeff, by the way, wouldn’t it be great to be on first name terms, and go like Jeff? So Jeff, and this is in front of a big audience, right? So he says, Jeff said, Well, you know, he was Amazon’s doing all of this kind of stuff. And he said, so I’m wondering, what advice do you give your marketing department now? With emphasis on the now? And business looks at him? And he says, Well, it’s the same advice that I gave them at day one, right. In other nothing changed about that advice. And the interviewer was like, Oh, really? And so he says, Well, what was the advice? And BS, or studies actually had two things. But the one thing that I want to pull out of it is this, he said, We need to remember that people have this fundamental desire to belong. Yeah. Another way of saying that is to connect, right, there’s another way of saying same thing. And so one thing that’s happened as a result of, you know, the pandemic and everything else, there’s no, there’s no denying anymore, that we, you can’t escape it, we are all connected, we really are all connected. And once you see your business in a way that it’s providing, in, in these times of uncertainty, that what it’s doing, it’s providing certainty to which people can belong. And, by the way, one of the one of the ways you do that, is by making sure as you said a moment ago that the business is about more than you, it’s about something bigger than you. So people feel great about being a part of it and sharing in their holding, for example, I had a call the other day from I saw the other day, that’s an exaggeration, it was four months ago. But anyway. So as long as from this woman, that first name is Kirsten, and then she she runs, is now a very large company that that makes these really innovative plastic containers. And it turns out that because now people need more storage, and all of that comes up, these innovative plastic containers are really sought after. And she’s the only one who’s got the sort of technology to make these things. So anyway, and it’s big business, you know, so I look around. So before the call, I look around my God, that’s a huge, huge business. Right? So I say that as I can I just ask, yeah, how did you come to give us call? I’d be wondering what she said. What she said, that’s interesting. She said, one of the things we need for our little plastic things, is we need labels, which we have to get printed. And so we have this printer. In fact, we have a number of them, but we have this particular product, who sent us the invoice and we paid the invoice and my account person then told me what happened. We paid the invoice. And like a day later, we get this note from this person. And it’s like, it’s called a gratitude certificate. And it says, I really want to thank you for paying the bill for the printing. And as a result of that. I taught them exactly what to say. But it was something like you know, 17 kids got access to education, three trees were planted, and we support something else. And the woman in accounts goes, Oh my God. She takes it to Kirsten then she says, look at this, look at this. And Kirsten says, which gets back to the point that you were making earlier on. Kirsten said she told me this. When I saw it, I said, Oh my God, I’ve been looking to do something like this for years, and never been able to find it. So you know, it gets back to that depth thing that you were you were talking about. And there is that searching I think in all of us.

Paul:
Yeah because it is always great to have joy come from paying a bill. Hahaha

Paul:
Exactly. Well, you know, it’s great to find ways like for example, and I hope I can.. I can sort of getting people on look behind the curtain here. And then as we’re recording this on Zoom, right so this is on Zoom. And so one of the things that B1G1 allows you to do and it really you know this but it just makes it instead of you know choosing a charity or something to support now you don’t do that we do is you find things that happen in your business and then you link that to making really superduper impacts. So for example, it happens that just because you and I are on Zoom, then kids are getting access to education just because You and I are on Zoom. And even better, even better, it’s happening automatically. I don’t have to count it or anything like that, because B1G1 links with what is it three and a half 1000 other apps out there. So you can make it really easy to do this, and, you know, just changes the way the business works. And it changes we were talking about before it changes that it adds that sort of magnetism thing to the business. It engages your team members, we know that when you engage the team members, you know, great things happen in the business and so on. So but so yeah, it’s a good thing.

Joanna:
I love it. And, you know, I guess to give some background, you know, we talk a lot about buying businesses, exiting businesses, growing businesses and of course, that’s what the Buy Grow Sell Summit is all about. But there is no point if you’re not getting joy and connection out of your business, you know, when there’s so much I see business owners all the time at the moment in, in overwhelm, you know, there’s exhaustion out of the business growing a business can feel like hard work, sometimes it can feel like you’re in the trenches, it can feel like there are fires, that you’re needing to fight all the time. And I think the message, the reminder, that, that there is something there’s something bigger than you’re creating out of your business can make the journey more joyful, and

Paul:
Totally, in fact, effective. Let’s see when was this one was about six months ago, and one of our members, her name is Karen, she happens to be up on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland. And I remember when she joined us and be wondering one which was like yonks ago, and she had just established this tiny little retail business owner, and I mean, tiny, it was tiny, and it was selling clothing, which was done in a very sustainable manner out of Thailand. And, and so anyway, so she, she has a little thing in the shopping centre. And one day the shopping centre management says this is a lot of people coming into your business, because your business, I’ve been wondering when at that point. And so what we want to do is give you as it gives you more space. So she said thank you very much more space because you’re actually attracting different people in the store anyway along comes and I remember very well. She was doing giving every day and the giving that she was doing every day was Cents. I’m not making that up. It was Cents. He was doing it every day. And I remember I asked for one day was years ago, I said, so why are you doing that? You don’t have to do that every day, you can sort of amalgamated at the end of the week. And she said she said something he said, The reason I do it is because it reminds me why I have this business. I thought wow, it’s so cool. I get my undergrad. But anyway, get into the story six months ago, I call her because it’s my 50th birthday. Right? And I say oh, hi, Tara. Yeah, happy birthday to your thing, expecting it to be a very short Happy Birthday call. And she says Oh, can we extend this? I’m sure we can. And I said so anyway, she tells me the story. She says, You know what, Paul, you know that when the with the retail thing that happened and everything else is you know, I had to already decide to go full-on in terms of you know, Shopify, in my business and E-commerce in my business and everything. And I said, Yeah, I remember all of that. You’re telling me it’s going well, she said, Well, it’s more than Well, she i, because someone might know a Karen on the Sunshine Coast, like benefit gamble when I say but let’s just say, is between seven and eight numbers right now in terms of Rita. And then I said, Oh my god, oh my God. And so how have you done that? She said, Well, sometimes I feel really ashamed. And I said, Really? She says why you know how all the business coaches prick up your ears, business coaches. They all say and I get the reason they say you know that we’ve got to have goals we’ve you know, we do four-month spreads and you know, all of that sort of stuff, and we need to check revenues and everything else. She said the reason I feel somewhat like an imposter sometimes is because I’ve never done that in my life. And I said, Oh, really? And she’s. She said no. She said but I have had a goal. And I said okay, well what’s the goal? And she says, only to do things that bring me joy.

Joanna:
Wow, well there you go the secret to success.

Paul:
And by the way, it’s very interesting. You know, you mentioned the summit, which, again, I’m really looking forward to, and you mentioned exit. And I’m not sure whether, you know, it’s an age thing as to when you think of exit or whatever, I think probably these days, when you look at the money has been raised in Australia, we think, excellent, you know, three days after you started the business because it’s amazing things happening. But what’s really interesting is that then Deloitte, Can I mention my name, even though this might make them sponsor the podcast, you never know. So they did, they did a study on this, this whole thing about, you know, what happens when you are standing for something bigger than your stuff, by the way, we see two distinctly different sorts of businesses. One I used to call ordinary, and that’s the businesses that don’t get the massive change that has been going on in our world, they just don’t get it. And there’s all sorts of things they do bits indicate that. And then there’s another group of businesses that do get it. And so what they, what we see that they’ve done is they’ve moved from being standard, ie ordinary, from standard to stand out. And here’s the really interesting, from standard stand out, because they stand for, they stand for something bigger than themselves, which is that whole thing, you know, going back to what you were saying about depth, but anyway, getting back to Deloitte, so about six months ago, they published the results of the study, right? So written studies, basically saying, if you find businesses that are standing something, you know, bigger themselves, what’s the result of all of that, and it will get back into a very popular word these days, which is called purpose. And by the way, I think there’s an even better word, the purpose, but But anyway, so they talk about, you know, in the studies that they’ve done, and here’s what they find, they found, for example, for example, they found that 80% of consumers will actually that that’s another exaggeration, I must stop exaggerating, it was 78%. Okay, so 78%

Joanna:
We will allow you to round

Paul:
78% of consumers would prefer to deal with a business that has a greater purpose, then enable something bigger themselves, they found that those businesses could attend, they should, but they could do a 38% price premium, which is like more, they found that 50% of people would actually work for those companies for less salary, which is also interesting. But the thing that’s really, really, really made my sort of eyes pop out, as they also said, what happens on exit. And here’s what they found. This is like, a hugely important number. They found that on exit businesses that we’re standing for something that had something bigger than themselves going businesses that were on purpose if you like, they found that there the on exit, the EBIT, da was four times greater four times, Which is like, wow. That’s insane. They got that they’ve got it half wrong. It’s still two times.

Joanna:
That what a great statistic, isn’t that?

Paul:
Where that comes from, but it’s a good part. And then the other thing that I think is really interesting in that is that, you know, there were these people, there’s a word for people that study this, which is, you know, what’s been the word of the year, you know, like, like, the end of the pandemic, they said that the most used phrase in the world was, you’re on mute.

Paul:
But anyway, the whole thing around purpose was becoming really interesting, but more interesting than that. So you know, the CEO is going by, we got to be on purpose, we got to be on purpose. So what tends to happen can happen is that they get together and then go, they have, you know, a retreat, I would much prefer, they call those things forwards, but they call them and so, here they are, you know, sitting around, I think we need a statement, we need a mission statement. And I’m not sure whether the mission or a vision, but we need something good. So so they work and then by consensus, they get this mission thing and somehow or other they get the word purpose in there, and they and frequently it’s long so then they stick it up in toilets so that people will remember why they’re doing it. But anyway, but here’s the Interesting thing, you know, how on earth do you measure purpose? You, you, it’s very difficult to measure that. That’s true, but if you if I can, but what’s really insane and this is one of the things that just happen by luck, rather than by design. But when you know beyond anyone started, we were very, very clear that what this had to be was about the impacts that you were created by not about the words of you, but about the impacts that you’re creating. And so one of the things that I see now is that people really understand it’s possible to get sort of word wash, you know, as opposed to greenwash purpose things, and you just get this nice statement and you hope you know that it really doesn’t. But when you say no, no, no, we’re an impact-driven company, then all of a sudden, just by saying, someone says, Oh, well, what is the impact? It’s a measurable thing you saw to me. And so you know, at your company, you know, that you’ve done 1000s upon 1000s, upon 1000s, I should have had the number actually I can, I can find it very quickly. of impacts, right. Yeah. And you’ve got this measurement of, and by the way, the great thing about having the moment of it, is that you can share that very, very, very, very simply with your members. By the way, I’ll tell you what the impact you have made is, and is this ready? 798,819 impacts in our world, Joanna, just because you’re doing it Aspect Legal. Thanks.

Joanna:
Wow.

Paul:
If this was life, the audience would go and cheer, well done Joanna! But we are on a pre-recorded podcast, you know.

Joanna:
I love it. Paul. I love it. Although so many questions I have, you’re just not even sure which to start with. why don’t we start? And I meant to do this right at the beginning, but we have so much to talk about, that we just got into it. But I’d like to just walk back a little bit. And maybe talk a little bit about your background. What was your experience in business, your dealings with business over the years? Because I know you have such profound insight into the struggles of business into what makes business work? And then how that ultimately led into B1G1.

Paul:
Yeah, okay. Well, whenever anyone asked me about the journey, sometimes people realize they realize my age, right. And just one little interesting thing on that, and I will get to the story. But on my last birthday, you’re gonna have to figure out what that was because I went to my son, who’s he needs, does coding and all that kind of stuff. And I said dumbly. Chi on your birthday, is it? I reckon instead of celebrating every year, at my age, I’d be celebrating every day. Can you just want a bit of code that says, you know, how many days it’s been and just remember that the year 2000 was not a leap year and everything else? And we’re suddenly standing by him? And she says, Well, he was he could do that. But there’s probably an app for that. Well, there is an app for that. And it’s called days since now, I’m sure this thing was made for alcoholics, right. So you can say, the last time I hit a drink was there and it tracks. You can also track like when you were born, so just, you know, right? Now everybody’s gonna stop the cars are where they are and get their calculators out. divide something by 300. Anyway, so today happens to be the 28,5707 days, right? So

Joanna:
Congratulations! Hahaha

Paul:
Hahaha thank you. But I think the most important thing for me, yes, you know, I got very lucky I really did get lucky. I was. I was one of the first 10 People in Hewlett Packard in Australia. I then went on to co create what many people regard as Australia’s first computer company. Someone told me the other day, that there’s a computer museum in Sydney, and we’re actually in that computer museum as being you know, the first thing so there’s a way before you were born, Giovanna anyway. Both then, you know, having credited that and then one day I was at a seminar before we knew what seminars were And I hear this guy who suddenly no longer with us, but a guy called James Rohn or Jim Rohn. And I’m sitting in his audience in Brisbane in what was called the travel boards. And I’m going, Oh, my God, I didn’t much appreciate how he sort of stood still, but I loved what came out of his mouth. And so I called up my colleagues in the computing company. I said, By the way, that’s it, I’m out of here. Could you give us a little bit more warning than that? Okay, this is on December the sixth, one the particular year 1980, actually. And so on the first of April, an interesting date of, of 1981, I decided that there was something inside me that I could share about that journey. And so I created a thing called results Corporation. And we had 23,000 Small and Medium Scale businesses that we were doing the marketing and everything for which was like, incredible. And then as you know, I sort of focus that in 90 in the 90s, around accountants, and then in the year 2000. I sold all of that, not because I wanted to, but because the love of my life at that time suggested that I needed life as opposed to, you know, every day on the stage kind of there. But yeah, obviously. I mean, yeah, the idea was, I would go to France, which is what happened, and I would, quote-unquote, retire. Well, that was just really difficult. I mean, there’s no way I could do that because I was curious about what happens. So anyway, let me get to the crucial point of this, this point. And I was in 2007. I was sorry, it was actually 2006. I was in Bangalore, and I was at this particular event, and I was there as a participant, I wasn’t there for anything else. And, and I wasn’t speaking as it were. And something happened at that event. Because at that event, if someone would have asked me, So what’s the secret? What’s the secret to business? I would have said, well, if there’s a secret, this is what I’ve done, there are only two things. And they said, What are those two things as well. The first one is to add enormous value to the people that you’re privileged to serve, that’s got to be the driver. It’s all about the outcomes, not about the inputs as drivers. It’s all of that. And then the second thing is, and have fun, is it? So but all of those years, those have been the only two things. And then something happened, which is, you know, a long story. But something happened. And it was as a result of a couple of years before that, which was the tsunami, you may remember in 2004. And Christmas Eve Christmas Day, I should say. And I met someone who had gone through that and all of a sudden, I I realized that through something that they did that there was so much like what you said at the beginning, there was more. And the moment I discovered that it was really was shown that and it’s really interesting because I have known about this thing called the RTA that does not some legal department or whatever the RTA says where your reticular activation system. Which by the way kicks in, you know, when in the days when you could afford to buy a car, I understand car prices, we don’t have cars. In Singapore, you don’t need them. So, so. So you know how it is you go and buy a car. And it was let’s say it was a mug or whatever it was, and you take it from from the showroom, and you’d be driving along. And then you’re looking at you go on the freeway, and all of a sudden, you see all these

Paul:
doesn’t look like yours coming and yet you thought you had this sort of exclusive thing, right? But oh my god, yeah, every car I’m seeing is like, you know, whatever it is you got right. And that’s just what the TMT reclamation system does. It sort of makes things and stuff. And so the moment I discovered that at that moment when I discovered that there was this third thing and this third thing was what you and I have been talking about that there is something deeper there is the opportunity to make a massive difference by doing tiny things. And that is one of those moments that someone said to me, you know that where we are right now in our life is just a result of the choices that we make at every moment. of life. So my hope is that as you’ve been listening to us, or me rambling you’re not doing on this podcast. And as you’ve heard about the summit and stuff, you might get from all of that one of those moments, one of those moments when something drops. And as a result, you know, you as a result of the choice that you take, at that particular point, a really interesting life unfolds that before that moment, you just never saw it, but it was always there.

Joanna:
And how many business owners? You know, and I guess you say, the business owners who are, who were searching for involvement in, in being a business for board or being involved in a business community that has those sorts of values. So perhaps, what you see might be a little bit skewed. But I guess what I’m driving at is, you know, when you reflect back on your business career, when you flip, reflect back on the businesses that you’ve dealt with, over time in your history, you know, at what point do you think business owners, you know, when is it that they often realize that there’s something greater? And what could be the benefit for them in realizing that earlier?

Paul:
Oh, okay. Very interesting. You have asked that question. Because before we were, we got to talk, I was putting some slides together for something. And one of the words that came up was the word legacy. And I think there is a moment, I’m not sure when that moment is, but when we think oh my gosh, you know, not gonna be here forever, sort of thing. And the whole thing around legacy, or what are we leaving behind? What are we passing on? And there’s something interesting about that word, legacy, you may remember I said before, that I really love alliterations, as, you know, standard to stand out because you stand for that sort of sad thing going. And so whenever I when I think of legacy, what most people do is they want to, they think of it as leaving a legacy. Right? So in other words, it’s, it’s way out there, hopefully, a long way away. Right? And, and then, here’s the interesting thing, that with legacy, it’s one of those things you don’t have a choice about, you are going to leave one, right, you don’t have a choice, you are gonna leave. But what you have a choice on is what does it look like? This is what you have a choice for? And so you know, is it a legacy of consumption? Or is it a legacy of contribution? And when you think about that, you start to think about the integration around that. You then realize then instead of thinking about leaving a legacy, why don’t we think about living? Sort of leaving? Why don’t we think of living longer? We think that every second every day, right? And then when you think about living one, so you’ve got, then then you think, Oh, actually, basically dying, or it’s exactly what you’re doing? You’re leveraging it, are you actually leveraging that by, by, you know, chatting to other people, letting them see what’s possible. So whatever, boom, you know, you’re impacting others who had the privilege of, you know, listening to the things that you talk about. So, it’s a very interesting thing. So you know, you go from living or sorry for worrying about leaving it. Just thinking every day about living it and leveraging it, and then guess what, every day becomes a very different day. Yeah.

Joanna:
Well, you know, I deal with so many business owners that exit so I see all sorts of your work. As business owners, you know, there can be many different feelings and approaches. One of the things that I’ve really noticed over time is this emotion at sales. So because so many business owners have this some, this connection, of identity with their business, and they that they, at the point of exit quite often they’re exhausted, they’re ready to go, they’re cooked, they’ve got other ideas, they want to be somewhere else, they have the idea of exit, and they get to exit but then suddenly, there’s a point where and I feel like quite often it’s not even they may not even realize what’s happening. But I feel what happens is that this point, suddenly they have to do because and, and sometimes I feel that a lot of that is connected to the fact that they haven’t found sort of this external depth outside of their business. Is that?

Paul:
Absolutely, you’ve nailed it. In fact, in fact, about 15 months ago, I started talking about a book that 15 months ago was released. And about three months ago, it won the Australian Business Book of the Year. And I’d like to think that that was because, you know, 12 months before I started saying, Hey, you got to get this book right. And it’s fascinating was by a guy called Tim dog MD Ugg, an, and, and the name of the book is called some people think I’m gonna say called now it’s called cu LT, current status or status if you prefer to say it that way. And it’s so interesting, it’s really authentic is his first book, by the way, as it’s written really, really well. And it tracks his journey. And there’s one particular point where he happens to be in a hotel in Thailand, I think it is towards the end of that particular passage of business. And he’s in the hotel, he gets the phone call. And the phone call is that his business salt, and salt and salt, you’ve done it right. Now you would think wouldn’t do that. That would be the time when you would go out and you’d have some champagne and get your friends around everything else. In the work, you’ve got to read the way he tells the story because he tells it very well. He spent 24 hours on the floor of his bathroom. Because he’s why? Because all of a sudden that in 2014 that moment, he started to relive all the stress of doing it. It’s really, really interesting. And so then under that, and there’s one of the reasons why the book is so authentic. You know, most people who write business books tell you, I think they reinvent his dress like, well, you know, I was really honest. And what’s really interesting in terms of my parents coming up, and so on, is easier to get a seven-step plan, right for doing things. And what’s really many interesting, I couldn’t believe it when I run I thought it was really, really interesting is on step one, what is step one, and he says step one is to identify your purpose, basically that, right? Or actually what he says what he said, Don’t say it that way, which is interesting. He says, identifies your impact, your impact. And he makes this really interesting observation. He says, you know when we’re starting new businesses, and when we’re starting businesses, we go something like what we said before, you know, we go, Ah, what’s the revenue going to be? And let’s, let’s, you know, let’s do the 10-year thing, let’s do the five-year thing into the three advantage of the one-year thing, let’s do the, you know, the trimester thing and all of that, right? And he said, Yeah, I don’t want to downplay that. I really don’t want to downplay that, because that’s important. But I think there’s a better way. And then the better way is instead of doing it that way, just stop figuring out and just put this number in there, which is the number of lives you’re impacting. Wow, it’s such a, it’s such a cool way, of thinking about it. And by the way, the other thing that he mentions, which again, is why the summer right now, then what better time could you have for summer? Let me tell you why I say right now, aside from the fact that hydro, we’ve learned something from this amazing thing called the bend Nemec. And I, by the way, when I say amazing, I don’t say that to belittle any of the very tragic things that have happened, but I really don’t. But we’ve seen so many businesses. And I don’t want to use the word pivot, but try and find new ways of doing things because they’ve had to, and as a result, you know, that’s changed a lot of things. But anyway, so the beginning of the book, and here are guys, here’s why the summit is really important. You can see behind me giant, there are lots of business books here, right? One of them, for example, is this one right here. This is Jim Collins, and, you know, Jim, and that’s his version to be but you know, when we think about those business books that we read, right, so for example, you know, Good to Great, and by the way, I’m not knocking Mr. Collins in any of this, right? Because he’s great. But when you read those books, then those books are saying lovely things about companies that we know, right? So it comes in like Apple and all of those sorts of things, right. But what’s really important it’s on a very lovely way, he says, But, you know, we need to remember that Apple was founded in 1976.

Paul:
And without taking anything away from the journey today is not nine Tene 76. So how we find, how we create, how we run, how we exit, all of that kind of stuff. It’s an entirely different scenario entirely different. And then when you add into that, you know, the metaverse is and the web threes and all of that sort of stuff. It’s just very different. And that’s why, you know, the summit is at such an important time, and because so many people are going and what’s all this mean? Well, that’s one of the reasons why you shouldn’t be there at the sun.

Joanna:
I love it Paul. Look, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast today. You know, it’s such an important topic, the whole point of the summit. And indeed, the whole reason I love the areas of law that we work in buying, growing selling businesses is that you know, I really, I see that sometimes business owners do things in a way that makes things more difficult and creates stress for them, you know, as they’re trying, you know, business is such a beautiful thing, it can create such innovation, but it can also create a lot of stress. And, and sometimes, you know, there’s slightly easier ways, but I think the message that I really, really, you know, I’m so grateful to have connected to and that I really wanted to be able to share with our listeners today with you was that it’s not just about the mechanics of business, it’s not just about your multiple legs that even though they’re all the things that we go through, it’s also about finding depth and finding the way to love what you do, but also to create you know, a legacy that you’re proud of, and to enter to find your people that you know, that’s another thing. But but but I guess it’s this depth and purpose

Paul:
is engineering, right? When you find all of that you put it very well but guess what you move you move from such an important thing to say you you move from having to push the message out the sort of push things that we do and everything else to sort of like pulling whereas you don’t even pull it just if it becomes more attractive. You just have more presence. Yeah,

Joanna:
I love it. Paul, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast today.

Paul:
It’s a pleasure.

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